Ian Wild
Hello everyone,
I'm the proud owner of 2 Denon Sc6000Ms that I'd like to use with Virtual DJ, in particular to take advantage of the stems. The SC6000M are perfectly detected and recognised by Virtual DJ and everything works just fine.
However, I have a slightly strange sensation with the motorised platter when it's active. I usually speed up or slow down the track (bending) during playback by using the edge of the platter as I would on a vinyl turntable.
I get the impression that it's not as precise and responsive as when I use the Sc6000M in standalone mode on Engine OS. It's quite difficult to describe. There seems to be a certain latency which means that the slightest bending action on the edge of the platter in motorised mode gives a sensation that it's too abrupt or not abrupt enough, depending on how you bend it.
Sometimes you're going to want to give it a little push to catch up with the bend and it's going to go way too far, or braking very lightly by barely touching the edge of the platter is braking too hard in the software, which makes the match quite imprecise in motorised mode. This is not at all the case in standalone mode. I tried different settings in the virtual DJ options and set the following values:
JogSensitivityBend: 0.0330 (perfect for fine adjustment with the platter in non-motorised mode)
MotorWheelInstantPlay : No
MotorWheelInstantStop : Yes
MotorwhellSmoothPercent : 70.0 (also tried with 50.0 which seems to be better for responsiveness but occasionally more drift)
MotorWheelLockTime : 0.0
I've also noticed that in motorised mode when I do an Instant Double, the decks don't stay perfectly synchronised and there are fluctuations and even some drift after a few seconds, which isn't the case for the same operation in standalone mode.
Have you noticed a similar problem for those of you using motorised controllers (Sc5000M/SC6000M/Rane Twelve...) ?
And what are the best settings for the most natural and instantaneous bending response in motorised mode?
I'm the proud owner of 2 Denon Sc6000Ms that I'd like to use with Virtual DJ, in particular to take advantage of the stems. The SC6000M are perfectly detected and recognised by Virtual DJ and everything works just fine.
However, I have a slightly strange sensation with the motorised platter when it's active. I usually speed up or slow down the track (bending) during playback by using the edge of the platter as I would on a vinyl turntable.
I get the impression that it's not as precise and responsive as when I use the Sc6000M in standalone mode on Engine OS. It's quite difficult to describe. There seems to be a certain latency which means that the slightest bending action on the edge of the platter in motorised mode gives a sensation that it's too abrupt or not abrupt enough, depending on how you bend it.
Sometimes you're going to want to give it a little push to catch up with the bend and it's going to go way too far, or braking very lightly by barely touching the edge of the platter is braking too hard in the software, which makes the match quite imprecise in motorised mode. This is not at all the case in standalone mode. I tried different settings in the virtual DJ options and set the following values:
JogSensitivityBend: 0.0330 (perfect for fine adjustment with the platter in non-motorised mode)
MotorWheelInstantPlay : No
MotorWheelInstantStop : Yes
MotorwhellSmoothPercent : 70.0 (also tried with 50.0 which seems to be better for responsiveness but occasionally more drift)
MotorWheelLockTime : 0.0
I've also noticed that in motorised mode when I do an Instant Double, the decks don't stay perfectly synchronised and there are fluctuations and even some drift after a few seconds, which isn't the case for the same operation in standalone mode.
Have you noticed a similar problem for those of you using motorised controllers (Sc5000M/SC6000M/Rane Twelve...) ?
And what are the best settings for the most natural and instantaneous bending response in motorised mode?
Posted 2 days ago @ 1:26 pm
groovindj
Ian Wild wrote :
as I would on a vinyl turntable
IMHO that's probably the issue here. It's not a vinyl turntable!
Yes I know traditionally DJs have used that technique, but it's not good for the motor, which is trying to stay at a constant speed.
Do you get the same issue when using the SC6000M pitch bend buttons? That's really how you should be making small adustments.
Posted 2 days ago @ 1:45 pm
Ian Wild
groovindj wrote :
IMHO that's probably the issue here. It's not a vinyl turntable!
Yes I know traditionally DJs have used that technique, but it's not good for the motor, which is trying to stay at a constant speed.
Do you get the same issue when using the SC6000M pitch bend buttons? That's really how you should be making small adustments.
Ian Wild wrote :
as I would on a vinyl turntable
IMHO that's probably the issue here. It's not a vinyl turntable!
Yes I know traditionally DJs have used that technique, but it's not good for the motor, which is trying to stay at a constant speed.
Do you get the same issue when using the SC6000M pitch bend buttons? That's really how you should be making small adustments.
the pitch bend buttons are very precise but that's not how I want to use it. All the DJs who use motorised equipment do their bending using the platter, because it's the most natural way for djs coming from vinyl. Motorised products are supposed to be designed for this. The proof is that in stand-alone mode it works perfectly well using the platter.
Posted 2 days ago @ 2:16 pm
groovindj
Ian Wild wrote :
All the DJs who use motorised equipment do their bending using the platter
Not true. Back in 2008 Denon released the HS5500 digital media player with motorised platter. I bought a pair and used them regularly for gigs in the following years. I used the pitch bend buttons to nudge back and forth - and yes I started wuith vinyl, back in the 70s with no direct drive and no pitch controls.
Playing vinyl on a DJ turntable, yes it's the accepted method - there are no pitch bend buttons.
Doing it that way with vinyl there's a direct physical connection between your action and the music, which is not the case with digital systems. Your action has to be converted into a digital signal which is then fed to the processor controlling the audio.
With the standalone player, there's a more direct communication link between the platter and the playback engine. Using it as a controller, there's a longer path (more latency) and probably translation taking place between "Denon language" and "VDJ language" so some delay between your action and the affect it has on the sound coming from VDJ is to be expected (IMO).
By the way, to quote from the SC6000M manual:
"When the motor is deactivated and audio is playing, move the platter to temporarily adjust the track’s speed"
Posted 2 days ago @ 3:05 pm
PhantomDeejay
I don't know about Denons.
However I have Rane Twelve and Twelve MKII.
I have 5 units total, and ONE of them SOMETIMES has trouble to keep up with the other 4.
I assume that this unit has a small issue that sometimes makes it's platter drift.
It's even visible with naked eye. If you start all decks with the vinyl needle at 12 o clock position, the 4 of them stay in sync (at quartz lock) even after 10 or 15 minutes. The fifth usually drifts behind.
So, regarding your drift question, I have tried to clone decks and leave them running up to 15 minutes, and they won't loose sync. Occasionally you WILL get some flanger effect sound but that's to be expected with such devices (and even turntables) as one deck may drift a few ms forward or behind the other before it autocorrects.
Also, VirtualDJ does indeed some "smoothing" of the platter data as there's no other way to keep playback that stable. This may come with the cost that smaller variations in platter rotation speeds may be smoothed/ignored since the software thinks that it's the platter fluctuation that's happening and not user input.
HOWEVER, for the most part I cannot say I ever hit that fine limit when trying to nudge. Instead on Rane Twelve / Twelve MKII at least, I find that the bigger issue (for me) is the motor torque.
After being used to work with SL1200MKII for years, working with a deck that "low" torque is too low and "high" is too high, required some adaptation.
I know what you mean (but I don't know if it's the same for Denon decks). Some times I would try to slow down the platter and nothing happened.. And then, just "one click" harder I would cause the deck to stop and scratch.
Mind you that I had this issues with Serato as well.
So, for me at least, it was more about getting used to a new turntable (rotating platter) than what I had before.
After some practice I become better, but for the most part I also switched tactics and usually I use the spindle now to slow down / speed up the track.
PS: I know you said that in stand alone mode "it works better"
But software doesn't usually have access to the exact same data the firmware (hardware) of the device has.
However I have Rane Twelve and Twelve MKII.
I have 5 units total, and ONE of them SOMETIMES has trouble to keep up with the other 4.
I assume that this unit has a small issue that sometimes makes it's platter drift.
It's even visible with naked eye. If you start all decks with the vinyl needle at 12 o clock position, the 4 of them stay in sync (at quartz lock) even after 10 or 15 minutes. The fifth usually drifts behind.
So, regarding your drift question, I have tried to clone decks and leave them running up to 15 minutes, and they won't loose sync. Occasionally you WILL get some flanger effect sound but that's to be expected with such devices (and even turntables) as one deck may drift a few ms forward or behind the other before it autocorrects.
Also, VirtualDJ does indeed some "smoothing" of the platter data as there's no other way to keep playback that stable. This may come with the cost that smaller variations in platter rotation speeds may be smoothed/ignored since the software thinks that it's the platter fluctuation that's happening and not user input.
HOWEVER, for the most part I cannot say I ever hit that fine limit when trying to nudge. Instead on Rane Twelve / Twelve MKII at least, I find that the bigger issue (for me) is the motor torque.
After being used to work with SL1200MKII for years, working with a deck that "low" torque is too low and "high" is too high, required some adaptation.
I know what you mean (but I don't know if it's the same for Denon decks). Some times I would try to slow down the platter and nothing happened.. And then, just "one click" harder I would cause the deck to stop and scratch.
Mind you that I had this issues with Serato as well.
So, for me at least, it was more about getting used to a new turntable (rotating platter) than what I had before.
After some practice I become better, but for the most part I also switched tactics and usually I use the spindle now to slow down / speed up the track.
PS: I know you said that in stand alone mode "it works better"
But software doesn't usually have access to the exact same data the firmware (hardware) of the device has.
Posted 2 days ago @ 3:35 pm